(If your computer can handle
it please click this YouTube
linkand 'Watch in HD'. It's
Incredible.)
8:50 PM, Thursday,
December 18th, 2008:
In perfect Journey
fashion last night as I shut off my computer and
went to bed, I actually uttered: "They
can't take that away from me." And rested peacefully
at knowing that no matter what happened in the rest of
my life - I had made some sort of mark. I
mattered on some level. I think anyone doing any
type of vulnerable art would like to feel like they
made a difference. Now this was in perfect Journey
fashion of course because as we all know the Journey
can never be easy. You know this is
coming...
So a longtime
reader (and also I believe my very first
cover-artist, more in the next entry) helped me out
and put up a bio on Wikipedia for me last night. I
mentioned in the last entry that I had one a few
years back but they deemed me not "notable" and
I soon vanished. Now however with my most recent
"1st Vlogger" moniker, the viral and national
television success of "Let's Bomb Iran" and of course
the time with CBS, I could probably pull it off.
Literally within minutes the Wikinazis
started...
(this
is a ridiculous amount of info, but for archiving
purposes, gotta put it up.
Little,
if any, secondary source material on
the subject. Not sure if he was really
the first "video blogger" but is that
sufficient to meet WP:BIO? Mr. Vernon
(talk) 08:02, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
*
Keep. Geez, you're quick. I only
put that up minutes ago. Multiple
sources make the claim that he was the
first video blogger. (See his
annotation of them here.) There is also
much evidence that he is the
longest-running video blogger, having
been video blogging consistently since
2000 (nearly nine years ago). In
addition, he has appeared on the CBS
Early Show many times, as a contestant,
host, and performer. He was a radio
host on WTVN and CD101 many years ago,
and he has also appeared on America's
Got Talent (albeit in the audience),
and as an extra on The Sopranos. All of
this information (and much, much more)
can be garnered from his 800+ entries.
He also satisfies a number of the
notability guidelines for "creative
professionals", as well as
"entertainers", having pioneered his
4TVs format, as well as his video
blogging. —Gordon P. Hemsley??
08:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
*
Delete: I agree with Mr. Vernon.
The first video blogger claim has a
citation which leads to a personal
web site (at the time of this
posting). Unless new information is
produced, I think this misses
WP:BIO. --OliverTwisted 08:21, 18
December 2008 (UTC)
However,
the link contains screenshots of
articles from more reputable
(i.e. less personal) sources. I'm
in the process of looking up
direct links to those articles.
—Gordon P. Hemsley?? 08:24,
18 December 2008 (UTC)
To
your point, screenshots are
not WP:RS, and are suspect by
their very use.
--OliverTwisted 08:32, 18
December 2008 (UTC)
While
I'll concede to you that
screenshots are not
reliable sources (a point I
hinted at in my above
comment), having been a
long-time reader of The
Journey, I can assure you
that the screenshots are
not "suspect by their very
use". Here are links to
some of the articles he
references (and others):
[1] [2]
[3] [4]
[5] [6].
All of these links make
reference to one or both
claims: that he is the
first video blogger and/or
that he was the host of
Living Room Live on CBS's
The Early Show, though I
gather you are not doubting
the latter claim? And I can
assure you that he was not
in any way involved in the
production of these
articles (except, possibly,
the ones from CBS).
—Gordon P. Hemsley??
08:45, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
Assertions
in blogs are not
reliable. The link which
leads to a citation list
on Wikipedia video
blogging,
[[7]],
leads to The Wayback
Machine, and a page that
has been deleted. The
claim of The Journey
being the first video
blog in the 2 sources
that do make it, do not
agree, as one claims
"The Journey" started in
2000, and the last
claims it was started in
2004 [8]. None
of the sources,
including the CBS link
to Adam Kontras hosting
a local talent show lend
any more notability.
Also, when you write I
can assure you he was in
no way responsible...
how is that you can make
such assurances,
especially when the
sources don't agree?
Just curious.
--OliverTwisted 09:00,
18 December 2008
(UTC)
Since
when is The Wayback
Machine not reliable?
This clearly shows
the entry was around
in 2001, so it's not
too much of a stretch
to consider the date
of January 2, 2000,
on it as correct,
especially when the
home page is proven
to have existed as
early as June 2000.
All signs point to
2000, except that
obviously-mistaken
AskTonyBrown article.
And Living Room Live
is far from a "local
talent show". The
Early Show is
broadcast nationwide
every weekday
morning, and the
contestants on Living
Room Live were also
from across the
United States. And I
can make such
assurances based on
the fact that I've
been in personal
contact with Adam and
can tell his is
sincere. Plus, I have
been reading The
Journey since at
least 2004—and
all of those entries
were already there
when I began reading.
—Gordon P.
Hemsley?? 09:26, 18
December 2008
(UTC)
As
this is an AfD
discussion, rather
than debate; this
will be my last
contribution. I
don't wish to
antagonize you,
but we clearly
have a difference
of opinion
regarding what is
reliable. I don't
dispute the fact
that Adam Kontras
is a singular
talent (or his
personal honesty,
by the way) and I
don't even dispute
the fact that, if
the article were
completely
reworked, you
might be able to
establish
notability solely
based upon hosting
an affiliate CBS
show. The issue at
hand is using
Wikipedia to
perpetuate a
grandiose claim
which, even at a
stretch, could not
be supported with
reliable sources.
Let's allow other
editors to now
weigh in and
evaluate the
outcome, to avoid
any dipping into
WP:NPOV territory.
--OliverTwisted
09:38, 18 December
2008 (UTC) (this
proved not to be
my final
contribution,
sorry.)--OliverTwisted
15:31, 18 December
2008 (UTC)
Fair
enough.
Besides, I
never meant for
the article to
be left as it
is. I was
merely
submitting a
first draft for
myself and
others to
expand upon.
However, I
suppose you and
Mr. Vernon like
to patrol the
new pages,
because you
both jumped on
me (or rather,
the article)
within minutes
of its
submission. I
really do feel
like the
article should
be given a
chance before
it is deleted.
After all, I
did make the
effort to
source all of
the statements,
even if my
primary source
was his
personal blog.
We'll see if
I'm all alone
in this
opinion.
—Gordon P.
Hemsley??
10:13, 18
Decem--OliverTwisted
15:56, 18
December 2008
(UTC)ber 2008
(UTC)
o
That goes to show how reliable
secondary sources are. - Mgm|(talk)
09:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
So
make up my mind: What's more
reliable, primary sources or
secondary sources? —Gordon P.
Hemsley?? 09:32, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
*
Keep As shown above, independent
sources exist. The fact they contradict
each other is not a valid reason for
deletion. It merely proves one of those
sources is less reliable than the
other. (That's what my previous comment
is about. I've seen numerous instances
of supposedly reliable secondary
sources botching up and making serious
mistakes; for non-controversial
material primary sources tend to be
more reliable) - Mgm|(talk) 12:11, 18
December 2008 (UTC)
*
Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Living people-related deletion
discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk)
08:28, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
*
Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Internet-related deletion
discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk)
08:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
*
Delete so far, the references are all
to self-published sources, and are not
considered reliable. Ohconfucius (talk)
09:08, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
*
Info: In October, 2008 the Video
blogging page was edited to remove
Adrian Miles who was a Senior
Researcher at the University of Bergen
as the first known blog. That archive
is still live and online, check this
out: [9]. Cheers. I love a good
mystery. Side Quest!!! --OliverTwisted
15:23, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
*
Proposal : Remove intro from
article with 1st video blog claim,
tweak the article up a bit and then
make a new case for notability on some
of Adam Kontras other charming talents.
Launch the article and see how well it
sails on its own, without the videoblog
assertions. You lose my charming
personality oozing all over this page,
and I'll focus on the discussion with
the Video blogging editors about
getting a consensus for how to
structure that timeline now. Here's my
deal. I'll stay off your toes on your
article. In return, I'd like you to
abide by the decision of the editors
who have worked on Video blogging, in
respect for their time and investment.
Deal?--OliverTwisted 15:56, 18 December
2008 (UTC)
*Keep.
Adam here, (have no idea how to prove
that-lol) Just thought I'd clear a few
things up. My show blog (which had
videos) started in may of 1999 and on
January 2nd 2000 it became a personal
video blog called The Journey. The
Wayback Machine used to verify this, I
haven't checked lately - but the 2004
assertion was just poor reporting (as
is the reporting I got my start on
Youtube). I was not on an affiliate CBS
station, I was part of the NATIONAL CBS
Early Show and appeared several times
in NY and did my segment, Adam &
The Egos at Television City in Los
Angeles. I'm not sure how anyone
could've derived it as local - a quick
search on cbsnews.com and every egos
episode is archived there. The Let's
Bomb Iran cartoon received millions of
hits and was spotlighted on MSNBC in
April 2006. All of which is documented.
—Preceding unsigned comment added
by 76.93.75.220 (talk) 16:20, 18
December 2008 (UTC)
Hi
Adam. As I stated above, I'm not
disputing your notability in that
regard, and have just basically said
run with it, if you have the
sources. I'd like some further time
to resolve the First Video Blog
claim, because this may set a
benchmark of sorts... and there is
argument for both sides. Adrian
Miles has live screen shots, at the
time called vogs instead of vlogs.
They are well documented in 2000.
From what I could get to load on
Wayback, June 2000 seems to be the
most recent footage of The Journey,
which has survived. There is some
discussion on this topic that will
need to go on, irrespective of the
article about you. If your bio
article is approved, the decision,
whatever it ends up being, can then
simply be added. Surely this is a
win-win for everybody?
--OliverTwisted 16:33, 18 December
2008 (UTC)
*Info:
Adam here again... On the first video
blog claim, using TheWayBack Machine,
you can find this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001216151000/http://www.4tvs.com/Journey/Pages/journal.html
that shows the site from a June 2000
web-crawl. Amazingly you can go to the
video pages and go into the "4tvs
Theater" and watch the first videos. I
haven't seen this design in nearly 10
years!! :-) You can even go back to
1999 when I was doing a video blog on
my 4tvs show:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010521095144/www.4tvs.com/Shows/112799.html
- but this was very erratic, not all
shows had video, and is a very weak
claim to the start of all video
blogging. However it should be noted
that I was blogging and had attached
videos that early. It became a personal
video blog on January 2, 2000 and at
the very least the conspiracy theorists
could say that somehow on June 21st,
2000 when this random web crawl occured
I knew this, recreated 55 entries and
started June 21st. I hope I'm not the
only one who hears how ridiculous that
sounds. But how else can we prove this?
And do I need to take a screen-capture
of the wayback machine for fear that
those pages will be lost? I really want
to get to the bottom of this because
it's a HUGE date in history and I'm
incredibly proud of how long I've been
doing this. —Preceding unsigned
comment added by 64.149.233.6 (talk)
17:33, 18 December 2008
(UTC)
If this wasn't
about my BABY this is actually very
fascinating. However, some of these guys are complete
fucktards (not gonna help your case Adam).
"The claim
of The Journey being the first video blog in the 2
sources that do make it, do not agree, as one
claims "The Journey" started in 2000, and the last
claims it was started in 2004 [8]. None of
the sources, including the CBS link to Adam Kontras
hosting a local talent show lend any more
notability."
Like, the G in me
came out when I read this. A local talent show?
Another guy claims it was just an
"Affiliate" CBS show. Bitches. Bring it. 3
million people a day watch The Early Show (except
every single person I have ever known - LMFAO)
and... hahaha, I'm still laughing, one second... AND
it certainly is a national program. And the fact that
some ass didn't do their research and said
I started in 2004 doesn't mean anything. Which
brings us to "The Wayback Machine"...
This is
unfortunately the only "archive" of the internet
I know of. It's a site that scours the web and
archives snapshots and logs them. However, back at the
turn of the century it was an inexact science. For
example I bought my domain on April 19th, 1999
and had a page up by the end of the month but the
archives show no record of it until June 2000. Clearly
it's an inexact science. But since the only other dude
started in November 2000 this should be enough right?
Well, it depends on who's judging it. The archive
grabs certain pages on certain days. The link to The
Journey works but when you click on an entry - the
archive jumps to a later date time-stamp. It's a bit
screwy and if you're a conspiracy theorist, you could
make the case that I put them all up in 2001 or
something. And maddeningly, I know of no way to
show otherwise.
However, the other
dude, named Adrian Miles - if you check his
vlog
page (which
he actually called a vog - props to him for nearly
coining the term) on Wayback
it starts in 2004. The reason is probably because he
changed hosts or renamed some stuff. His initial index
page goes back to 1998 and his initial vlog page
(which would be my Journey
page with
all the years on it) archives
earliest on July 2,
2001
- whereas mine
archives
earliest on December 16,
2000. But
in both cases the moment you hit an actual entry page
it jumps to the later archive. It would seem because
of this the editors will just say: "Fuck it, no
one gets the title" and that is abso-tively
unacceptable. How can that not be a way to prove when
something was uploaded?!?!! Quicknet, who I was
with in 1999-2000 is no longer in business and even
though I believe my DV tapes have time stamps
encoded on them, that doesn't prove they were on the
internet at that time... although do the original
internet files have time stamps?
Oh hell yes they
do. WOW. I actually didn't realize that. I'm so glad
when I redid all the video quality on the site
that I saved the original files for the first two
years. The shitty compression was just so comforting
to watch years later I didn't want to lose that.
However, again, a conspiracy theorist could easily say
it doesn't prove that I UPLOADED them on that
date... but for fuck's sake, now you're getting a
little insane. And although I could photoshop
that picture up there, even when you copy the original
file it doesn't change the timestamp. Hmmm - could
someone hack that though?
Anyway - the war
is on. If there is ANYONE who can freakin' think
of a way (Stephen, maybe you still have the old emails
from 2000??!) that I could prove that The Journey
existed in 2000 I would really appreciate it. It
sucks, columbusmusic.com actually did a little story
on me called "Makin' it in LA" in February 2000
talking about The Journey but guess what page The
Wayback Machine didn't archive.
DAHHHHHHHHH.
Well, it isn't The Journey if you don't
have to struggle for every freaking thing,
every freaking moment. If you don't get
great news followed by bad news no matter
your attitude. LOL. It's so nice to
say: "Well it makes you appreciate
it more!" but when it's always taken from
you, there's not a whole lot of time to
appreciate it, you know?
So
clearly, Paddy plays the part of "The
Journey" in this video. Be proud
Paddy.
Seriously though,
start rackin' your heads for a way to prove this.
I know at least 250 of you guys out there were
reading back then...
